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| F20C or Beams? |
| F20C & 6 speed box? |
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44% |
[ 11 ] |
| Beams & 6 speed box? |
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56% |
[ 14 ] |
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| Total Votes : 25 |
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Conrad
Ryousuke
Joined: 18 Nov 2007
Posts: 138
Location: UK
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 Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:20 pm Post subject: F20C or Beams? |
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As some of you are aware I am in the middle of my 86 project and I was going to install an F20C and gearbox (which I already have but it would sell if need be) but I now have the option of a Beams engine and 6 speed box which would be keeping its heart as a Toyota.
If Carlsberg were building a Corolla AE86 what would the engine probably be?
Whats the concensus? Honda or Toyota?
Con
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SekiguchiUeno
Takumi
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 493
Location: Czechoslovakia/Germany
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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heh not sure exactly, thus i no vote yet, honda is lighter and rawier engine, but beams has good powerband and torque. what i have seen beams has profiled oilpan to fit right over the crossmember but dont know other details. box should be the same.
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Sx-Machine
Wataru
Joined: 27 May 2008
Posts: 100
Location: Zaanstad, The Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:05 am Post subject: |
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Stay toyota
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Toyota Starlet KP61 1.3 DeLuxe - 1983
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Miguel - Newera
Ryousuke
Joined: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 189
Location: Tokyo, Japan!
1985 Toyota Corolla AE86 (late JDM Levin)
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:11 am Post subject: |
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I've not seen many BEAMS engined AE86's here in Japan (And only seen F20C engined Hot Staff cars at shows for that matter), but the main benefits of the BEAMS would be the exhaust manifold on the passenger side and therefore no clearance problems with the steering rack.
One thing I did notice also with a Beams conversion was the sump sat quite low... But that wouldn't be so much of a problem here, since this is a full on race car which could be dry sumped   !
All Toyota FTW!
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roco
Wataru
Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 54
Location: ireland
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:31 am Post subject: |
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id personaly love to do the beams aswell, i just love the engine, and the sound it makes on itb's is savage, although that said, the honda as said is lighter, and is a proven great car/engine package,? id still go with the beams tho, its probably the only engine i havent had a chance to put in a hachi.
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Dimitri
Iketani
Joined: 06 Sep 2008
Posts: 38
1983 Toyota Corolla AE86 (early JDM Levin)
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:20 am Post subject: |
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beams by a mile.
the best combo is an auto 3 engine.
aftermarket clutch/flywheel combo
and an sa63/ 3y engined van bell housing to w58 ect gearbox.
the 3s has similar power/weight/power potential. a nice sump which if youre smart requires 0 x member mods (apart from engine brackets if thats the way you do it)
auto engine cos theyre cheaper, and the standard manual flywheel is dual mass and horrible anyway.
changing to the 5 speed makes fitting the engine WAY WAY easier than the 6 speed, and miles easier than the ridiculous f20 box.
the taper of the bell is much sharper, meaning you can push the engine further back, giving you more height for adequate sump clearance, and the power handling is similar.
here in australia the f20s are about double the price of beams engines. which always leaves me scrathcing my head when i see so many f20 swap overseas. though i guess in the u.s f20s are probably comparatively cheaper as im sure there were alot of s2000s sold in the u.s (they love their hondas)
still as far as fitting goes, theyre alot easier.
the plenum though, is huge, if you reduce it in size, you can fit the brake master cylinder in, with no booster. changing to quads though would mean no issue there at all. that or pedal box.
on a rhd car, my boss used factory headers and secondaries.
there are photos on ae86drivingclub.com.au. Anthony is the guys user name who did the conversion, and their are more pics of the set up in
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/board/index.p...&#entry588263
this thread, the guy who bought the package. "dr1ft-pig"
theres also another guy on another aussie toyota forum called toymods, screen name is "celica RA45" or something. he has a club sprint car, and has made over 300hp, NA..
plus a bunch of improved production corollas running them (with the gearbox set up i described, as theyre not allowed to cut the firewall/tunnel)
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DJexor
Moderator
Joined: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 1443
Location: Netherlands, Den Haag
1985 Toyota Corolla AE86 (early Levin)
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:22 am Post subject: |
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voted for Beams. Keep it Toyota!
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Conrad
Ryousuke
Joined: 18 Nov 2007
Posts: 138
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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Mmmm... Interesting all Polls on the various forums point to Beams By a majority 
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banpei
Site Admin
Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 7941
Location: Hilversum
1982 Toyota Carina
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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Votes beams.
I always loved 86ers beams in the AE86:
http://www.aeu86.org/viewtopic/ae86/p/83316#83316
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1982 - TA60 Carina 4dr sedan - family cruiser
2004 - AEU86 dot ORG - daily domain
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Conrad
Ryousuke
Joined: 18 Nov 2007
Posts: 138
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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OK will see what happens and then make a decision....
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Chixican
Wataru
Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 60
Location: Seattle, Wa USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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Either engine will leave you with a smile on your face during the drive. I'm sure a beams engine will be able to clear the steering column easier than a f20c for all of you RHD guys out there since the intake is on steering column side. Personally I'm going with a f22c because I scored a deal on an engine/gearbox with about 3700 miles on it (6000 Kms). The intake will clear the steering column nicely on my LHD car too.
Hopefully I'll be building it this winter and have it rolling full force by spring.
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JonnyAE86
Bunta
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 533
Location: Yokohama - Portugal
1984 Toyota Corolla AE86 (early Levin)
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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SR20
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Conrad
Ryousuke
Joined: 18 Nov 2007
Posts: 138
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| JonnyAE86 wrote: | | SR20 |
its not even in the same league as the other two options 
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marvinng
Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 2
Location: Vancouver, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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as much as i love toyota, i'd vote for f20c.
my mechanics has a beams motor in his 86 which i have driven. the engine is heavy. need to drop the sub-frame by 1.5" or 1.75" and messes up the suspension geometry. the car doesn't handle very well.
another buddy of mine has done many f20c swaps (like 5 this year), and he has also driven my mechanic's beams-86. he said the f20c-86 is way faster, no comparison. the engine is lighter, only needs 1/2" subframe spacer, minimum change to the suspension geometry so the car handles better. i have never driven a f20c-86 but i take his words for it.
marvin
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JonnyAE86
Bunta
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 533
Location: Yokohama - Portugal
1984 Toyota Corolla AE86 (early Levin)
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| Conrad wrote: | | JonnyAE86 wrote: | | SR20 |
its not even in the same league as the other two options |
 Pardon my early "assholeness", I mean, both engines are GREAT and I would give my left nut to own any of them, but this discussion is just like:
"Should I do Pamela Lee or Jessica Alba??" 
IMO you should go for the V-TEC once you already have it, for extra power go for the Turbo Nissan
Its a dead end, so I did not vote, I would love to have both and honestly I cant decide...
Cheers
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Dimitri
Iketani
Joined: 06 Sep 2008
Posts: 38
1983 Toyota Corolla AE86 (early JDM Levin)
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| marvinng wrote: | as much as i love toyota, i'd vote for f20c.
my mechanics has a beams motor in his 86 which i have driven. the engine is heavy. need to drop the sub-frame by 1.5" or 1.75" and messes up the suspension geometry. the car doesn't handle very well.
another buddy of mine has done many f20c swaps (like 5 this year), and he has also driven my mechanic's beams-86. he said the f20c-86 is way faster, no comparison. the engine is lighter, only needs 1/2" subframe spacer, minimum change to the suspension geometry so the car handles better. i have never driven a f20c-86 but i take his words for it.
marvin |
it is definitely just as easy to fit the beams without "sub frame" spacers as it is the f20.
if you cut the tunnel and raise it, you can easily push the beams far enough back to not to space the sub frame using the 6 speed, i know, we've done it. seeing as you basically HAVE to do this to fit the f20c's box, i dont see how you can argue that the f20 is easier to fit nicely/with less mods. the beams also has other transmission options i mentioned above, which will require little more than a few taps with a hammer.
power wise.. 1 beams v's someone who sounds like they make a living out of doing f20 swaps isnt really an open and shut case.
this is a total wild guess, but im assuming that if youre mechanic is happy to fit the engine, by dropping the sub frame by over 1.5", which is HEAPS, he might also have not quite got the wiring/tuning spot on.
most people run the beams on standalone.. if thats the case with your mechanics car, then possibly his tune isnt getting everything out of the motor. its definitely a fairly "tricky".. or at least time consuming engine to tune. basically there are 4 things to tune.. instead of the normal 2 on most engines.. as both cams are constantly varying (not just on/off like a 20v vvt) so there is a map for each cam, as well as ignition and fuel.
as far as weight.
id love to see some numbers. not just the aluminium is lighter than steel rationale.
thats the same as people assuming SR20s are light because theyre all alloy.
or that rotarys are light because theyre small.
the way i see it, the honda engine, as standard, makes a little more power, but is a little harder to fit.
here in australia though, the difference in price (over $3000) tips the balance fairly heavily back towards the beams. out right potential is also very similar with each engine being capable of hitting the 300hp mark, which is commendable for any 2L engine, production based or otherwise.
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Conrad
Ryousuke
Joined: 18 Nov 2007
Posts: 138
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| JonnyAE86 wrote: | | Conrad wrote: | | JonnyAE86 wrote: | | SR20 |
its not even in the same league as the other two options |
Pardon my early "assholeness", I mean, both engines are GREAT and I would give my left nut to own any of them, but this discussion is just like:
"Should I do Pamela Lee or Jessica Alba??"
IMO you should go for the V-TEC once you already have it, for extra power go for the Turbo Nissan
Its a dead end, so I did not vote, I would love to have both and honestly I cant decide...
Cheers |
LOL @ Jonny, but turbo VTEC is even better again
I think I'll stick with what I have
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speedyrolla
Wataru
Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 112
Location: Aruba,The Caribbean
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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I voted for the 3SG Beams..
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marvinng
Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 2
Location: Vancouver, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:46 am Post subject: |
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| Dimitri wrote: |
most people run the beams on standalone.. if thats the case with your mechanics car, then possibly his tune isnt getting everything out of the motor. |
both the beams-86 and f20c-86 are running stock ecu. it'a apple to apple comparison.
my mechanics is a master tech at lexus by the way. wiring was properly done i'm 100% sure.
in canada, f20c is easier to come by, as none of the toyota's have beams.
anyway, just my 2 cents.
cheers,
marvin
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Dimitri
Iketani
Joined: 06 Sep 2008
Posts: 38
1983 Toyota Corolla AE86 (early JDM Levin)
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| Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 1:25 am Post subject: |
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master tech, cool.
im not formally trained in anything, but i'd still never space the sub frame 1.5" to fit any engine to any 86 under any circumstance.
im willing to say, maybe the f20 is faster. because ive never been in an 86 powered by one. or an s2000 either. going off the factory quoted power and torque figures, i dont see there being a huge difference, but maybe a noticeable one.
the info i can give is that the beams engine made 175hp at the wheels, on the same dyno, an ae101 20v will be lucky to make 120. (both in ae86s)
what i can say for sure, it is no more necessary to space the sub frame when fitting the beams as it is the f20. both are tall motors, and large gearboxes. though the f20 box quite a bit bigger than the az6. the further back you push the engine, the more clearance you gain with the bonnet (hood) as it is sloped at the expense of necessitating transmission tunnel modifications.
edit- re weight, i dont have any numbers specifically for engines. but i just checked with ant. and his car (jdm trueno, coupe) with beams was 881kg.
frp bonnet and boot. stripped interior, sound deadening stripped up to front seat tie rail, and also had the dash and headlight looms removed. normal windows, larger diff, big ssr 15s ect. apart from the head light dash loom, a fairly normal privateer drift car.
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