Heel Toe?

Joined: 19 Mar 2008 Posts: 1 Location: Los Angeles

Ok so I'm new to drifting and I don't understand what exactly does heel toe do?

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:13 am Post subject:

heel toe is a technique where you use your toe's to brake and your heel to throttle at the same time. It allows you to change gears while breaking before a corner so you can accelerate while you're in the right gear once you exit the corner without loosing time and without the need to change gear at the wrong time.

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:25 am Post subject:

To double de-clutch a down-shift:

Depress Clutch.
Drop it into Neutral.
Release Clutch.
Rev Engine to a tad beyond what it will be at when you've released the gear you want to select.
Depress Clutch.
Slip into lower gear.
Release clutch.

If it's properly done, the change down should feel seamless and very smooth. Someone used to doing this can do it in roughly a split second - i.e. very quickly (Provided the engine can be blipped quickly enough).
You can use it to smoothly change down from say 5th to 3rd, without needing to use 4th in between.

Heel & toe is doing all the above whilst controlling braking at the same time.

Takes some practice at first, start with double declutching, then when you're perfect at doing fast synchronised downchanges, start using your right foot's toes to control braking, whilst using your heel to depress the throttle.

Heel & Toe means the car's weight is only transferred to the front once whilst braking (Each time you let off the brakes, the weight comes off the front suspension).

Personally, I do it always, when driving a manual car. It's become 2nd nature - I hate the new paddle shift transmissions that do this for you!

Hope this helps! Thumbsup

Miguel

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:26 am Post subject:

Have a look at how Keiichi uses his right foot when he drives around the track:

Link

As you can see whenever he brakes for a corner he pushes the throttle at the same time to get his engine up to revs while shifting down... This way he matches the revs of the gears downwards. If he wouldn't do this the revs of the engine wouldn't match the speed and gear and the car would slow down due to the engine running slower than the gear would require.

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:32 pm Post subject:

I still need to learn that double clutch thing at some point, I'm never fast enough for it...

Damn Robokill even does it in his fathers damn trucks!! (its fun driving with him when he drives these 2 or 3 ton trucks around, you'd think he's behind the wheel of a race car)

With good synchros double clutching is a little less important I guess if you rev match correctly on the downshift though, heel&toe does become that much more important..

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject:

I don't think you use heel&toe so you "dont slow down", because when your braking into a corner, you are slowing down, and you never brake with your engine when driving hard - its the brakes that should exactly dose your stopping power. Heel toe is used so that the difference in gear speeds in a downshift doesn't lock the proppeled wheels and fucks up your braking ballance. This is best felt on slippery surfaces (rain and snow), speed into a corrner, brake and let the lower gear go without the throttle blip - rear will lock, putting you into a slide. With the throttle blip, gears match nicely, and you get much smoother, non-jerking braking.

So this technique is best used for racing, when you want smooth tranitions/braking/etc.. but the absence of this technique can be used to initiate a drift.. although its not very nurturing for your driveline.

here's a funny but clear video on the subject:

Link

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject:

Apolan,

If you brake, then stop braking, and then waiste time to change gear, you loose time ergo, you slow down. You can't change gear in the time after braking and before stepping on the accelerator without loosing time because that is the time you are cornering and changing gear while cornering is stupendously dangerous, and ideally you want to hit the accelerator as soon as possible after you release the brake anyways.

As you say yourself, when you brake you are slowing down, if you change gear during the time while you brake, you WIN time because you do not loose time later.

Its not the braking causing you to loose time, its not having to change gear while you are not braking that causes you to win time.

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject:

Mux, dont tell me your car doesn't shift without throttle-blip when the brake is depressed? Very Happy

I mean ofcorse youre not going to shift before or after braking, or even stop braking to shift the gear, that i rediculous. Heel toe isnt "neccessary" so to speak, it just makes the braking phase more controlable and smoother as you're downshifting. Im sure we all agree on that, i just wanted to point this out as it hasn't been mentioned.

When i first drove my hachi abit faster, and its was at a time my first rwd experience, the rear broke out while braking&cornering&downshifting.. it was never that "obvious/meaningful" with the fwd car.. there you only get mild undeersteer, than your on your way, but with rwd i think it so much more important that you do heel and toe as you might even spin out if not careful.

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject:

This lot above covered it basically.

For what it's worth if I get in a car with someone for a spirited drive and they can't heel and toe and blip gear changes you can let me out. Absolutely fundamental to quick driving IMO. Same goes for two hands on the wheel at all times, braking and changing gear before a corner not in it (though trail braking to get the ass of the car out is slightly different as it's intentional).

The idea behind blipping downchanges, and heel and toe is to relieve or minimise the effect of the bodyweight of the car changing whilst you're 'on one.' If you're proper hurling down a road braking hard into a corner and then change gear by dipping the clutch and selecting gear, then letting the clutch up so the revs of the engine do that horrible struggled whine as they try and catch up with the speed the gearbox is running at, you're gonna unsettle the car. It will lurch forward and when you're on one that can be and often is enough to get the car to lose stability and grip.

Blip your downchange or use heel and toe and there's no sudden lurching forward of the weight of the car.

Double de-clutching is a technique largely redundant in modern cars with syncro mesh boxes, but should be learned anyway IMO to enable you to drive anything smoothly, not just modern cars. I'm currently practising it and have it down until I am on one, at which point I'm not quite quick enough or reliable enough yet to use it safely.

Also think about left foot braking... Wink

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:35 pm Post subject:

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject:

Double clutching and heal-toe shifting is fun, even in a suzuki alto (noth that i'm good at it, but just practicing on slow roads to shift up and down using double clutching and throttle blipping at first is great!)
(hmm, maybe not such a constructive post... oops Very Happy

)

Here's a nice link about heel-toe and just in general shifting techniques:
Shifting Technique

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:19 pm Post subject:

Mux, yes, seems like we're talking about the same thing from different ends Very Happy

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject:

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:37 pm Post subject:

If you only blip the throttle on downchanges, this will cause wear on your synchros. Eventually the cones will wear and you'll have no synchro left on some gears. This is why a lot of older cars have crunchy gearboxes, especially if they're driven fast regularly!

It's not hard to learn to downshift properly by double de-clutching - and once you know, it's second nature! Thumbsup

It's also a lot quicker to downchange, if you've got say - a tired gearbox as you won't have to wait for a tired synchro to work. You just release the clutch quickly, because the whole mechanism is already spinning at the speeds it needs to.

Once you know how to double de-clutch properly on downchanges, then do it whilst you're pressing the brake with your right toe (And use your heel to operate the throttle).

Remember - Before Synchromesh was invented, everyone used to have to synchronise gears, maybe your grandma could do it - so can you!!! Cheerleader

It's also useful to know how to synchronise gears for other reasons: For example, if you get a broken clutch release mechanism you can get home, without grinding gears (And potentially breaking the gearbox if you force changes.. Sad

).

Simply start the car in 1st at traffic lights - and synchronise all gear shifts by blipping correctly in neutral on up & downshifts. It's a useful technique to learn. Try it on an empty road, feeling for when the gears click into place, as the engine revs (That you blipped to) drop.

Here's a slightly amusing story about driving clutchless:
At university, as a peniless (& lazy - 'cos I couldn't be arsed to replace the bent clutch fork!) student - I drove a £75.00 Citroen 2CV for 3 months without a clutch pedal....Much to the amusement of friends. One day in Central London the throttle jammed wide open. Being late for wherever we were getting to, I used the ignition switch to modulate the engine power... still clutch pedal less, of course! We were in hysterics...

Later, with 5 of us in the car on the way back to Brighton, although I'd released the stuck throttle, the cable snapped. We couldn't just leave the car and had no money for a train anyways, so I took off & tied my belt to the throttle cable and pulled that through the floppy window to operate the throttle - We still got home no problem. Very Happy

I kid you not, lol!! Ah, fond old memories. That old 2CV was great fun and we were foolish Smile

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:25 pm Post subject:

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:40 am Post subject:

hahahah Miguel what a story!! Very Happy

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:02 am Post subject:

Opp's Re-post - See below.

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:11 am Post subject:

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:39 am Post subject:

Man i think we all would Very Happy

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:06 am Post subject:

Imo the main reason for heel and toe is the the use of ceramic metal clutch discs without springs in race cars. It´s absolutely impossible to brake hard and shift down without this technic, cause the rear end of a rwd car will immediately block and break out.

Greets raki

Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 1:26 am Post subject:

I learned the cardriving when i was 11, with a fiat500 1963.

AE86 : Drifters > Heel Toe

I had no other choice then to shift with Double de-clutching. In neutral i had to wait on fullthrottle till about 3 sec to shift in the next gear. Stupid

Otherwise it sounds that horrible from the gearpinions, so you'll never miss the right rev again!! That engine has absolutly no power! But it was really funny, exiting and without any stress as well!

Btw: heel'n toe is much easier with standing pedals then the hanging ones. Althout that also works easily.

Takumi Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 486 Location: EIRE

Im over 6ft so all this talk is nonsence to me in an ae86,, no can do, 3 pedals with 1 foot!!!

Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:06 am Post subject:

I'm 6ft4 and happily revmatching my way..So its definately possible for BigFoots to "heel and toe" in an AE86.. Its easy even..certainly when compared to a miata.
I found about a 2 second improvement on a gymhkhana course, just from revmatching between 2nd and first. Then found another second by just letting the revs drop in second and never bother to shift at all. Smile

I also know that some VERY tallented racedrivers never heel and toe. Just time their shift moments very precisely and use the extra rear brake bias to rotate the car..amazing but true..
It sounds cool though..that must be worth something?