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Bubble_Drift
Takumi
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Posts: 343
Location: Venray - Maastricht - The Netherlands
1987 Toyota Corolla AE86 (late EU)
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 Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: Cams for a stock 4age 16v |
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I'm looking for a set of cams to get some good HP gains from a stock 16v.
Something with a 8,5mm lift is the max. right?
What about duration on in and outlet?
Also post prices and where you can buy them. Thanks!
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robokill
Bunta
Joined: 07 Sep 2004
Posts: 2197
Location: Amsterdam // The Netherlands
1986 Toyota Corolla AE86 (late EU)
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BOOMEX
Ryousuke
Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 187
Location: Paris
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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If i remember correctly the Maximunm Duration for the ECU of the 4age is 272° with a potatose idle style
And the maximum lift it 8.00 milimeters.
I thinck 272 in and 264 ex or both 264 wtih 7.9mm lift cam be a realy good set up 
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BURN THE RUBER NOT YOUR SOUL!
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robokill
Bunta
Joined: 07 Sep 2004
Posts: 2197
Location: Amsterdam // The Netherlands
1986 Toyota Corolla AE86 (late EU)
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| BOOMEX wrote: | If i remember correctly the Maximunm Duration for the ECU of the 4age is 272° with a potatose idle style
And the maximum lift it 8.00 milimeters.
I thinck 272 in and 264 ex or both 264 wtih 7.9mm lift cam be a realy good set up |
Boomex, problem with long duration cams is that the max power is only been put up in RPM. Meaning you have to rev the engine more. Which is not so good for the engine.
I run the 8.5 and 9mm lift cams and it runs great. Billzilla even ran 9.5 on his car when he bought it on a stock head. So no worries.
If you have more lift you will gain more torgue. The way to tune a 4age is with high lift cams and duration below 288. (but with 288 or 282 you'll be running 11 or 12 mm lift.
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"08 Honda Civic Hybrid
"86 AE86 Kouki Panda Levin GT-Apex (restore project)
"84 AE86 Zenki White Levin (project racer) http://www.cardomain.com/ride/613398
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AE86 Drive it, Skid it, Drift it.
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oldeskewltoy
Takumi
Joined: 29 Jan 2007
Posts: 270
Location: PDX, Oregon, USA
1987 Toyota Corolla AE86 (late US)
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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I've been doing a lot of research into cams, compression and ECU.
| Bubble_Drift wrote: | I'm looking for a set of cams to get some good HP gains from a stock 16v.
Something with a 8,5mm lift is the max. right?
What about duration on in and outlet?
Also post prices and where you can buy them. Thanks! |
based on what you wrote... the BEST catcams option will be the 7105136.
Why???
although you can get a 272 cam to idle on a stock ECU, the 272 cam makes its peak hp ABOVE 8000 rpm, the stock ecu cut is at 7500... so why run a cam that you CAN'T maximize the power for???????
Stock cams are either 232(high compression), or 240(TVIS) duration. each runs out of breath @6600 rpm. Shorter durations increase dynamic compression ratio, which helps to increase low end torque.
So what you want is a cam that will achieve peak power close to, but NOT over 7500 rpm, and yet still be of a small enough duration to not harm low end torque.
Catcams also shows different cams for each application. Running a "smaller" cam on the exhaust side can boost low end torque some... but the engine is usually limited to the smaller cams rpm limit (this is just informational... not a problem)
Oh... one more thing... using "advertised durations" is not a good thing.... if you look, you can find most cams show a 2nd duration number... the 7105136 cams show this 2nd duration number as 222/212. This is a FAAAR better duration to use when comparing.
Why??? The advertised duration of catcams exhaust cam is 238. Apparnetly smaller than a stock 240 cam. But in reality it isn't... the stock cam's 2nd duration number is 204... So although it appears the cat cam selection would not rev above 6600 because the exhaust cam is smaller.... in reality it is larger... and so will rev above 6600...
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Dan -
You can  .... OR you can ask for help!!!
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Eircamae86
Takumi
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 481
Location: EIRE
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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Also interested in "experience"...
looking for cams/pulleys for the Banpei Trueno, 16v Big-Port & hopefully on VEMS, want an all-round good cam with plenty on Torque, it will also be on 20v ITBs
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An 86 is for Life, not just for Christmas
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AE86_Z
Wataru
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 59
Location: Hungary
1985 Toyota Corolla AE86 (early Levin)
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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I will have further information in two weeks.
We will install some new parts into my cars engine:
HKS camshafts 272 8,1 intake and exhaust too
HKS valve spring set
HKS oil up kit
high comp 4AGE oil pump
TRD racing bearings
My engine setup currently (was built 6 month ago):
7rib block with 1st gen crankshaft-pistons-conn.rods
lightened flywheel, adj cam.gears
ported/polished bigport head
increased CR (11:0)
TRD header with 2,5" free flow exhaust
Map sensored factory ECU always running on 100+ octane
The engine is revving very hard above 5500rpm now, in my opinion it have about ~135-140hp on crank now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g19dS_bI1uU
I need at least 10 more hp  because my opponents have 200-350 hp.
I would like to reach a little more than 150 hp on crank, planning to final set up the engine on dyno.
Regards,
Z
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2006 Toyota Corolla Verso 2.2 D4-D
2005 Toyota Corolla Hatchback 1.4VVTi
1985 AE86 Drift racecar
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F0Bman
Takumi
Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Posts: 259
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:07 am Post subject: |
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You should check out the Toda Cam Dyno Plots from Sport Compact Car. They used the 272 Pair and found that retarding both cams helped making power.
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Fully Restored 1985 Corolla GT-S
1987 328ci SR20DET Drift Car
1989 Honda Civic Si-R Current Project
2002 Corolla CE Daily Driver
www.TheTunerSource.com
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AE86_Z
Wataru
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 59
Location: Hungary
1985 Toyota Corolla AE86 (early Levin)
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:53 am Post subject: |
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Hi all!
All the parts installed
Conclusion:
HKS 272 8,1 camsahfts with factory ECU can't idle normally and the engine usable after 3000rpm. But the sound is really nice
We tried to advance and retard both cams 5 degrees. The butt dyno said it was better on -5 -5. We have some problems with setting the ignition timing, bacause of the crappy idle.
On the other hand:
The engine pulls very strong above 6000 rpm. I think I have got at least 10 extra HP at topend. The 7800 limit is not enough. I'm sure about the engine can't reach the peakpower at 7800.
On friday we will go to dyno, and trying to finally tune the cams with factory ECU. I don't mind the shit idle and weak power under 5000 because it is racecar. But I can't advise these cams for streetable use with factory ECU.
I need to buy a stand alone or a piggyback ECU to reach all of the extra power what cams can do.
Also installed: the HKS oil up kit and new oilpump (hicomp 4AGE) for more oil pressure
"idle" 500-1000 - 2-3 bar
>2500 - 6-7 bar
Question:
I'm planning to buy a Greedy E-Manage Ultimate piggy back. This version of the E-manage can move the revlimiter but only if it's a fuelcut. Does anyone knows it's fuel or ignition cut in the 4AGE ecu?
Pics:
http://ae86.blog.hu/2008/08/09/nyaraltunk_1
You can see my 1st test on Youtube:
Link
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http://ae86.blog.hu
2006 Toyota Corolla Verso 2.2 D4-D
2005 Toyota Corolla Hatchback 1.4VVTi
1985 AE86 Drift racecar
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tolisspi
Takumi
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 253
Location: Greece-Korinthos
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| AE86_Z wrote: | My engine setup currently (was built 6 month ago):
7rib block with 1st gen crankshaft-pistons-conn.rods
lightened flywheel, adj cam.gears
ported/polished bigport head
increased CR (11:0)
TRD header with 2,5" free flow exhaust
Map sensored factory ECU always running on 100+ octane
The engine is revving very hard above 5500rpm now, in my opinion it have about ~135-140hp on crank now. |
Do you have a dyno about horsepower 135-140hp? I think that its a lot for that set up.
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**COROLLA EE80 - 4AGE 124HP**
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tolisspi
Takumi
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 253
Location: Greece-Korinthos
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| AE86_Z wrote: | Conclusion:
HKS 272 8,1 camsahfts with factory ECU can't idle normally and the engine usable after 3000rpm. But the sound is really nice
We tried to advance and retard both cams 5 degrees. The butt dyno said it was better on -5 -5. We have some problems with setting the ignition timing, bacause of the crappy idle.
On the other hand:
The engine pulls very strong above 6000 rpm. I think I have got at least 10 extra HP at topend. The 7800 limit is not enough. I'm sure about the engine can't reach the peakpower at 7800.
On friday we will go to dyno, and trying to finally tune the cams with factory ECU. I don't mind the shit idle and weak power under 5000 because it is racecar. But I can't advise these cams for streetable use with factory ECU. |
What do you think about 264 lift 8.1 or 264 lift 7,9? i have a bottom end of 4agze (smallport) and i want to use it like N/A. i ll change the pistons with the pistons of 100kw to increase the compression. The rest ll be stock (bigport head (tvis), ecu, oil pump ect). But i would like the car be streetable not race.
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**COROLLA EE80 - 4AGE 124HP**
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AE86_Z
Wataru
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 59
Location: Hungary
1985 Toyota Corolla AE86 (early Levin)
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| tolisspi wrote: |
Do you have a dyno about horsepower 135-140hp? I think that its a lot for that set up. |
I don't have any dyno result yet. But I think the 135-140 range not a lot for my previous setup . Don't forget about the TRD 4-1 header, the tuned head, and the raised compression etc. The basic engine could do 124hp.
pls watch one of my older vids, I think it's more than 10 extra hp 
Link
If the dyno will measure less than 140 on friday I will burn my car 
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http://ae86.blog.hu
2006 Toyota Corolla Verso 2.2 D4-D
2005 Toyota Corolla Hatchback 1.4VVTi
1985 AE86 Drift racecar
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AE86_Z
Wataru
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 59
Location: Hungary
1985 Toyota Corolla AE86 (early Levin)
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| tolisspi wrote: | | What do you think about 264 lift 8.1 or 264 lift 7,9? i have a bottom end of 4agze (smallport) and i want to use it like N/A. i ll change the pistons with the pistons of 100kw to increase the compression. The rest ll be stock (bigport head (tvis), ecu, oil pump ect). But i would like the car be streetable not race. |
I think the best choice for a nearly stock engine is 264 8,1 /256 8,0 combination (If you want HKS cams).With this combo engine can reach peak power at ~6800.
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2006 Toyota Corolla Verso 2.2 D4-D
2005 Toyota Corolla Hatchback 1.4VVTi
1985 AE86 Drift racecar
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tolisspi
Takumi
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 253
Location: Greece-Korinthos
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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I forgot to tell you that i have adjust cam gear TODA.
It isnt good in/ex with 264 8,1? Maybe i ll buy and a standalone ecu to have idle normally.
Thanks a lot ...
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**COROLLA EE80 - 4AGE 124HP**
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AE86_Z
Wataru
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 59
Location: Hungary
1985 Toyota Corolla AE86 (early Levin)
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| tolisspi wrote: | I forgot to tell you that i have adjust cam gear TODA.
It isnt good in/ex with 264 8,1? Maybe i ll buy and a standalone ecu to have idle normally.
Thanks a lot ... |
If you have adjustable camshaft gears, you can tune the peak power, maybe 264/264 ok for you without any standalone. I think a greddy e-manage blue more than enough for that config.
But I advice you to tune the header/exhaust system and intake too, before you buy cams.
Regards,
Z
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http://ae86.blog.hu
2006 Toyota Corolla Verso 2.2 D4-D
2005 Toyota Corolla Hatchback 1.4VVTi
1985 AE86 Drift racecar
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tolisspi
Takumi
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 253
Location: Greece-Korinthos
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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I have OEM/genuine header/exhaust. I have the super flow HKS for intake.
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**COROLLA EE80 - 4AGE 124HP**
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AE86_Z
Wataru
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 59
Location: Hungary
1985 Toyota Corolla AE86 (early Levin)
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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The best and easiest power gain, if you can buy a really good 4-1 header with free flow exhaust system.
_________________
http://ae86.blog.hu
2006 Toyota Corolla Verso 2.2 D4-D
2005 Toyota Corolla Hatchback 1.4VVTi
1985 AE86 Drift racecar
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BOOMEX
Ryousuke
Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 187
Location: Paris
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:57 am Post subject: |
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What do you thinck guys about this combo:
264 in ang 256 ex with 8.1 lift?
Thanck you.
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BURN THE RUBER NOT YOUR SOUL!
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robokill
Bunta
Joined: 07 Sep 2004
Posts: 2197
Location: Amsterdam // The Netherlands
1986 Toyota Corolla AE86 (late EU)
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:01 am Post subject: |
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this is my engine running:
81.5 mm pistons
standard head gasket
worked ports and valves (also combustion chamber)
catcams last standard valve cam.
264 252 8.5 and 9mm lift
I am running 134.8 WHP and 150 NM
This is measured on the wheels. So anything is possible.
Viewed 107 Time(s)
my engine
_________________
"08 Honda Civic Hybrid
"86 AE86 Kouki Panda Levin GT-Apex (restore project)
"84 AE86 Zenki White Levin (project racer) http://www.cardomain.com/ride/613398
"86 FC3S Silver RX7 (mux his old lady) http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3091984
AE86 Drive it, Skid it, Drift it.
KIS it
Keep It Sideways
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tolisspi
Takumi
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 253
Location: Greece-Korinthos
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:17 am Post subject: |
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I think the power is from the pistons 81.5 and the cams.
Good diagram without big and anormal curves
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**COROLLA EE80 - 4AGE 124HP**
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AE86_Z
Wataru
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 59
Location: Hungary
1985 Toyota Corolla AE86 (early Levin)
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| robokill wrote: | this is my engine running:
81.5 mm pistons
standard head gasket
worked ports and valves (also combustion chamber)
catcams last standard valve cam.
264 252 8.5 and 9mm lift
I am running 134.8 WHP and 150 NM
This is measured on the wheels. So anything is possible. |
OMG  It's almost 170 horsepower on crankshaft. Great result!
Can I see any videos of your car?
_________________
http://ae86.blog.hu
2006 Toyota Corolla Verso 2.2 D4-D
2005 Toyota Corolla Hatchback 1.4VVTi
1985 AE86 Drift racecar
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AE86_Z
Wataru
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 59
Location: Hungary
1985 Toyota Corolla AE86 (early Levin)
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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Dyno run:
167,11 HP @ 7250 rpm 155 Nm on crankshaft
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http://ae86.blog.hu
2006 Toyota Corolla Verso 2.2 D4-D
2005 Toyota Corolla Hatchback 1.4VVTi
1985 AE86 Drift racecar
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[Walaki]D`Lair
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Posts: 8
Location: Budapest - Hungary
1985 Toyota Corolla AE86 (early Levin)
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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Grats m8! You have an awesome car! ZDoman tuning FTW! 
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Nothing sounds like a high revving N/A engine...
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tolisspi
Takumi
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 253
Location: Greece-Korinthos
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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What a fuk!
Very good result mate! And you have the oem ecu!
How do you count the crankshaft horsepower?
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**COROLLA EE80 - 4AGE 124HP**
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AE86_Z
Wataru
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Posts: 59
Location: Hungary
1985 Toyota Corolla AE86 (early Levin)
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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I think I made a mistake in the calculation for crank. I counted with 25% drive train loss, but as I read on club4ag 20% is a common number.
So my car can do about 160 HP on crank.
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