My 20v ITB installation

Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:43 pm Post subject: My 20v ITB installation

Well,

its been a while coming but a few of you were interested to see how my ITB installation was done.

Today I have ordered my new trumpets from T3 to replace what can only be described as *the mess* that was already bolted to them.

as they are right now

AE86 : Technical > My 20v ITB installation

after removing the K&N filters you see this...

AE86 : Technical > My 20v ITB installation

Look at the way those bell mouths have just been held in with high temp silicone seal !!! they are not even the right size for the 47mm inlets on the silvertop ITBS !!! and 2 of them are falling out. I can imagine that some of that silicone shit has been sucked into my engine which is not good !

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to which injectors these are - I am thinking they are std 4AGE blue top - which probably means they would struggle to provide enough fuel for my 'claimed' power output.

the trumpet plate

This is just a pure work of art LOL

AE86 : Technical > My 20v ITB installation

Some nice accurate engineering and welding there Shocked

And the ITBs themselves.

AE86 : Technical > My 20v ITB installation

Again - some bonding agent was holding the plate onto the bodies - but look at all the agent that is in the airflow !!! again my engine has probably been eating this stuff which is bad.

I'm not impressed by the dirty mess inside the ITBs - maybe its best to take the whole lot off and clean them up ?

These pictures also show you how the throttle linkage has been done.

Even one of my siamese cats laia admits they are are bodge job.

AE86 : Technical > My 20v ITB installation

I now have to put all this *crap* back onto the car as the new trumpets wont be here for a week.

So - what do you guys think ? its pretty messy eh ?

Wataru Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 82

Did it come from Japan like that or was it done in the UK before you got it?

To be honest its things like that I've seen which put me off buying a Japanese import at the moment, the Japanese might have a better climate to keep cars from rusting but it doesn't mean they don't have bodge jobs being done occasionally.

Its good to see that your sorting it out though and at least the rest of the car seems nice. Thumbsup

Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 6:48 pm Post subject:

It was like that from Japan - I'm sure Alex wouldn't have done it that way before I bought it.

As a whole it works fine - its just that I guess I am a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to things like this. I'm sure it will all be ok.

I wouldn't be put off by Japanese imports. This is the ONLY aspect of the car which not quite right (or what I've found so far). I think providing you get the right people to find you the car you can get a good one.

Glen from the driftworks forum has brought in some absolutely amazing cars. He has great contacts over there. He quite often has work carried out on the cars in japan by reputable drift workshops - labour rates are cheaper than the UK and the workmanship is top notch. Take a look at the Silvia 180 that Glen has just got for himself.

I guess at the end of the day these cars are 20 years old - its going to be impossible to find a perfect one.

Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:23 pm Post subject:

beige injectors = standard 215cc/min injectors

btw i see white cat on your engine!!!

Wataru Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 82

I've seen a couple of imported AE86 imports with a cat fitted but I didn't realise it was that type of cat, I don't think a decat pipe will solve the problem. Smile

Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:55 am Post subject:

Zax,

do you have any idea what 'potential' power those injectors run to without going over 85/90% duty ? Looks like I'll need to find myself some bigger ones. Car was said to have 20v injectors - but I guess these are regular 16v 4AGE injectors ?

Well, I dread to think what cams and valve gear I find in the top of the engine. I *should* find some non-std think cams in there, and I *should* find uprated valvesprings etc... I wonder if I will ?

The white cat is not so good - T3 pipe fits much better Wink

Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:28 pm Post subject:

Yo Ian
The basic formula for calculating fuel requirements is (no. of cylinders x injector flow rate) / 6.75, this equals to about a 90% duty cycle. For example a car with 4 cylinders and 215 cc/min injectors, would have enough fuel for (4 x 215) / 6.75 = 127 hp.

Another useful formula is for calculating the percentage increase of fuel flow through the injectors if the fuel pressure is raised. The formula for this is the square root of (new pressure / stock pressure). So for example let's say you increase your fuel pressure from 38 psi to 48 psi, you percentage increase of fuel would be (48 / 38 = 1.26315). The square root of 1.26315 = 1.12, so you have now increased fuel flow by 12%. So if your injectors are 215 cc/min, you would now have (215 x 12% = 25.8 ) + 215 = 240.8 cc/min injectors.

Some basic info on toyota injectors can be found here.
http://www.aeu86.org/viewtopic.php?t=500

Look what i used to have...a black cat on red top engine.
AE86 : Technical > My 20v ITB installation

Then some stupid driver "de-cated" me, so now i have white sparco cat.
AE86 : Technical > My 20v ITB installation

Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:52 pm Post subject:

Hey Zax,

your black decatted cat looks alot like my oldest cat:)

I have 5 cats btw.....

sorry for the offtopic post:)

Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 2:11 pm Post subject:

hehehe,

staying off topic.

some of my other pets (1 cat missing from photo) and my good wife.

AE86 : Technical > My 20v ITB installation

back on topic

One of the things I'm trying to determine right now is if the injectors on my car are actually able to supply enough fuel with the ITBs present. I don't have a fuel pressure gauge so I can't tell if the presure as been raised from standard.

I am now completely paranoid that my engine is nothing like the spec it should be.

It obviously has the 20v fuel rail installed and what I think is the std 20v fuel regulator. I guess the 20v runs more fuel pressure than the 16v ?

Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 2:38 pm Post subject:

As far as I know, most (except redtop) 4age's run the same 2,55kg/m2 fuelpressure. The standard 182cc injectors could support around 140bhp at that pressure running 100% dutycycle. At 80% that figure drops somewhat to the 115 to 120 bhp mark.
You really should try and keep an eye on the fuelmixture when running a standalone. A WBO2 readout should be standard equipment if you want to keep the engine in one piece.

Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 3:16 pm Post subject:

Yes,

I'll have a look at the O2/Lambda sensor and see if it has any special markings on it. If it isn't wide band then I will replace it. Would be useful to have a mixture gauge in the car so I can spot enrichment/lean out on the fueling.

Takumi Joined: 28 Oct 2004 Posts: 213 Location: Portugal

Hi there
Are you trying to use the standard MAP ECU to run ITB's ?

If the answer is yes, I sujest that you read the megasquirt, i think that is a very good solution for ITB's

The ITB's didn't come with the fuel rail and the fuel injectores from the 20v engine ? if yes , is it possible to run them instead ?

Thank you Smile

Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 9:37 am Post subject:

Gon,

my car no longer runs the stock ECU. It has a Freedom computer from Japan controling fuel and ignition. I think Paz from Driftworks will be running ITBS on the stock ECU soon so it will be interesting to see how it runs.

Good news !!! Mr postman delivered me a package this morning. I was expecting gaskets and cam gears but the package was the wrong shape.

T3/Gabe has come through again - my new ITB trumpets are here and the quality is amazing !!! will try and take some photographs later.

I just need to order the filter socks now and get a spare hour to install them (I have to clean all the mess from the mounting surfaces on my ITBS first).

I'm going to the Autosport international show on friday so should be able to pick some filters up there. The HKS S15 Genki drift car driven by Nob is also on display so that should be good to see.

I was going to use the orange gasket goo to mount them up and then clean away the excess when they are bolted up (obviously being careful to make sure none goes into my intakes). Does this seem like a good idea ?

Takumi Joined: 29 Sep 2004 Posts: 301 Location: Austria

interesting stuff about injectors!
i also like to go back to theory for double checking (at least i learnd this stuff some years ago so it comes handy sometimes).

i am not really shure if the the flowrate = power calculations are 100% right. normaly i would not bother but i just experienced some stuff on a dyno myself. it was with a hyundai 1500ccm turbo. this car was making 190hp with 192ccm injectors. with stock fuel pressure (2bar over manifold pressure so that was about 3bar).

also the calculation about the stock 4age injectors seems not 100% right. mine makes 128hp in stock form (not just 120hp)

hm...?

i think its best for you ian to check with a lambda meter on a dyno wich can hold constant rpm. then you will know where you are...

cheers

Takumi Joined: 29 Sep 2004 Posts: 301 Location: Austria

btw, is it a high flow cat? Wink

Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:38 am Post subject:

Cat is very high flow. I was considering installing them both but It works out a bit expensive Wink

Takumi Joined: 29 Sep 2004 Posts: 301 Location: Austria

would not be a good idea to install the cat infront of the cat. burned hair will jam the metal cat Smile

hey, i found a pic of my old sucker. later that day he pissed into my seat, my nice cat Very Happy

Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:07 am Post subject:

Takumi Joined: 29 Sep 2004 Posts: 301 Location: Austria

hehe. he alswas does that Evil or Very Mad

grin. i think i shoud go to the doctor with him Smile

Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 12:52 pm Post subject:

Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:46 pm Post subject:

Ian, your running the std AE86 fuel rail. The 20v runs an internal fuel rail as they are side feed injectors that are in the inlet manifold and not situated in the head like on the 16v. It is possible that your fuel pressure has been turned up by squashing the regulator thats on the end of the fuel rail.
Best way to check the pressure is to mount a gauge where the cold start injector feed is on the fuel rail.
My grp A car only has 210cc injectors, but the pressure is more than standard and it makes 197ps

I ran the 20v throttle bodies on my old black car with the std ecu, it can be done.

If you need some help im not far away.

Jamey

Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:44 am Post subject:

Cheerrs for the help/advice Jamey.

Since starting the thread and understanding a little more about injector types from 4AGE motors (especially the difference between the 16v and 20v) I figured the rail was the std 16v unit once I'd found out the injectors were not 20v.

I must get a pressure gauge on there at some time. We did have one on our old hayabusa powered westi but I cant find it now.

When all this new stuff gets fitted onto the car I'd like to put it on the rollers and see what its making (I reckon maybe 150bhp ish at the flywheel). At the same time I'd also like to use a wide band 02 monitor so we can see how the fueling is doing. The biggest problem right now is not being able to work with the ECU.

Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:40 pm Post subject: The mess is gone...

Well,

today I made a difference to my hachi Smile

if you remember my ITBS looked like this behind those trumpets

AE86 : Technical > My 20v ITB installation

So, after approx 1 hour of cleaning gasket sealant and some metal cleaner they looked like this.

AE86 : Technical > My 20v ITB installation

I was at the autosport show yesterday and managed to pick up a set of pipercross C1050 trumpet socks direct from their stand at half the retail price. Thumbsup

This is what was waiting to be installed onto the car...

AE86 : Technical > My 20v ITB installation

And after a bit of spannering...hmmmmmmm.... trumpets Drool

Gasket seal was cleaned up and the socks installed and zip tied into place.

What with getting the timing sorted and fitting these the car is pulling like a trooper - its really smoothed things out and it revs hard as you like again. I was so happy I decided to navigate an entire roundabout - sideways LOL.

Takumi Joined: 21 Sep 2004 Posts: 407

That looks very nice, look forward to seing your car at Silverstone next weekend! Smile

Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:49 pm Post subject:

Looking good!