US /vs/ EU ignitor module, HELP PLEASE?
09-26-2011, 04:46 AM
Post: #1
US /vs/ EU ignitor module, HELP PLEASE?
I'm a yank with a 6/1985 production GT-S, original owner and yes, I do try to pamper it.

Anyhow...last year the car decided it wouldn't start up on hot summer mornings over 90F (about 34C) and the final solution was autumn, when it got cool again. And, I disassmebled, cleaned, reassembeled the ignitor module wiring and thought maybe that fixed it.

This summer, same problem. After putting 3000 highway miles, at high speed in decent weather, on the car, the summer heat came over 90F every morning again and again, no start, period.

Fuel pump has power (EFI, COR, cold start, AFM bypass, etc.) all the way back. Engine runs like a fine swiss watch when it starts, and restarts without any problem when the engine bay is 200F (90C+) on highway restarts. So it is something most peculiar and since "fiddling" with the ignitor module helped last year, out of desparation I'm thinking of replacing that "throw parts into it" as a last resort.

I've tried to locate a used ignitor module with the same parts numbers (there are may slightly different ones, apparently the dwell and timing are different in each) and there are none to be had. At $700US Toyota no longer offers new parts.

But a 3rd-tier supplier still has "the right part" available, maybe, for $350US and an "EU market only" part for $60US.

So you might see why I'd like to know, how are the EU and US versions of the ignitor, both for the 1985 4AGE GT-S engine, different? Should they be "good enough" with perhaps a slight tweak in the timing or dwell making no real difference except in the emissions? Perhaps the ignition curves are designed for different gasoline octanes? (We don't have gasoline in the US anymore, we have this damned "E10" ethanol blend anyhow.)

Will my ECU get terribly upset and start demanding a translator and exotic dishes?

So if anyone knows the real differences...You'd be doing an original owner a HUGE FAVOR by clueing me in. I usually don't settle for less than OEM perfect but in this case, I'll be happy if the damned thing will just fire up and go back to running again!

Red

Original owner, 1985 Toyota Corolla GT-S in the US of A. Will trade for a Cadillac-Gage V150 or a Ford GT44.
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09-26-2011, 06:18 AM
Post: #2
US /vs/ EU ignitor module, HELP PLEASE?
Red.......

the Euro igniter is it for the 4AGEC, or the 4AGE? The difference is the 4AGEC uses 9.4 to 1 cr, and some of the Euro markets use the 4AGE @ 10.0 to 1 CR.

I'm guessing at the rest... Euro is MAP sensor and USA is AFM.

Just did a bit of research and toyodiy says... these Euro cars should have that igniter

02/1985-07/1986 AE86L-ECMQFC GT, EUR, SDZ, CP, LHD, 4AGEC, MTM, 5F, 3D 84-01
05/1985-03/1987 AE86L-ECMQFG GT, EUR, FRG, CP, LHD, 4AGEC, MTM, 5F, 3D 84-01
05/1985-03/1987 AE86L-ESMQFG GT, EUR, FRG, CP, LHD, 4AGEC, MTM, 5F, 2D 84-01
08/1983-03/1987 AE86L-ESMQFW GT, EUR, EUG, CP, LHD, 4AGE, MTM, 5F, 2D 84-01

I did a quick check on Rock Auto and found out that is why you are asking... under $60.00 for the Euro model, while the USA models have a price in the low $300s.

Dan -

You can |Sad .... OR you can ask for help!!!

OST Porting service - http://hachiroku.net/forums/showthread.php?t=19991
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09-26-2011, 06:39 AM
Post: #3
US /vs/ EU ignitor module, HELP PLEASE?
Hey, os. Wanna weekend ticket to someplace warm and all the beer, coffee,coke, or whatever it is you drink to come help out on a car?<G>

The EU part is apparently available for 4AGE and 4AGEC, two variations. You'll notice only the last one:
08/1983-03/1987 AE86L-ESMQFW GT, EUR, EUG, CP, LHD, 4AGE, MTM, 5F, 2D 84-01
says it is for the 4AGE rather than the 4AGEC engine. You are saying this lastpart should work in the US/AFM version of the engine, i.e. mine? Or that I'm be better off using the 4AGEC model, which is also designed for the AFM as well as the lower US compression ration?

I've also asked the maker for their input but frankly, if they even still have access to the information I expect they would be afraid to share it.

"You can .... OR you can ask for help!!! " Tried both, so far equal results sadly. So, I'm making one last try at all resources.

Now, what did you say you were doing this week, and which drinks should I stock for you?<VBG>


PS- I know coils go flaky in heat. But since the engine compartment is routinely 200F on highway restarts after refueling, etc., that would tend to indicate that an ambient air tempertature of 80-90F should actually be cooler than normal, and not a issue. Unless it worked from 20F to 80F and then from 120f-200F but just not anyplace in the more temperate middles? (his way lies madness.)

Original owner, 1985 Toyota Corolla GT-S in the US of A. Will trade for a Cadillac-Gage V150 or a Ford GT44.
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09-26-2011, 06:44 AM
Post: #4
US /vs/ EU ignitor module, HELP PLEASE?
The symptoms you describe do sound like it could be the ignitor. They're know to be temperature and vibration sensitive when they get older.

I've got two OEM 4agze (MAP/DLI) igniters which are both working fine. Don't know if they'll work for you but if they do let me know if you need one.
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09-26-2011, 09:19 AM
Post: #5
US /vs/ EU ignitor module, HELP PLEASE?
MAP igniter:
[Image: AEU86 AE86 - US /vs/ EU ignitor module, HELP  PLEASE?]

AFM Igniter:
[Image: AEU86 AE86 - US /vs/ EU ignitor module, HELP  PLEASE?]

I have spare AFM versions.
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09-26-2011, 07:39 PM
Post: #6
US /vs/ EU ignitor module, HELP PLEASE?
Thanks, guys. I don't think a MAP ingitor would work, one plug versus two on the harness, among other differences. Also a 4AGEZ ignitor probably interacts with the knock sensor for the turbo engine, again likely o be different.

The last picture, plain AFM ignitor, matches what I have. Although no one seems to know why there are many different part numbers for the ignitor (see the big "51" on top?) or, again, whether a "wrong" part number will still be "good enough".

Can you tell me the two big numbers on the AFM ignitors you have? There's the "51" and another one on the top label...if both match up with mine, it would be a peculiar universe if I could only find spares half a globe away!

I'm also going to try talking to a local dealer later this week to see if we can make a deal. aybe he'll cut me some slack on diagnostics or labor time, if I lend him the car to show side-by-sdie with the new FT86 when those ship.<G>

I think a little "see the new see the ORIGINAL" could be great marketing that would be worth a lot more to him than throwing in some labor time, no? <G>

The idea came to me in desparation last night, because this problem HAS TO BE SOLVED. Or as they say in the horror movies "DIE VAMPIRE DIE!"

My car is not allowed to have problems like this, we have a long-standing agreement about that.

Original owner, 1985 Toyota Corolla GT-S in the US of A. Will trade for a Cadillac-Gage V150 or a Ford GT44.
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09-26-2011, 08:33 PM
Post: #7
US /vs/ EU ignitor module, HELP PLEASE?
Uzelac Wrote:I have spare AFM versions.

Read between the lines :wink:

FABRICA MI DIEM, PVNC!
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09-27-2011, 12:58 PM
Post: #8
US /vs/ EU ignitor module, HELP PLEASE?
AFM ignitor is really easy to find, at least in Europe Smile

Will compare these two i have, although since they are from same cars (same model/year/4AGEC engines...) i presume they will be exactly the same.
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09-30-2011, 05:35 AM
Post: #9
US /vs/ EU ignitor module, HELP PLEASE?
I was hoping that I'd be able to confirm a bad ECU today. So much fun digging all the crap outof the car to access the ECU...then I had to drill out two of the screw heads, pot metal using non-standard not-philips screws.

But I carefully inspected every component and solder joint in the ECU, hoping to find a leaky electrolytic cap or a bad solder joint. Nada, everything looks good to a sharp eye.

Then I took the entire ECU and stuck it in a freeer for a couple of hours to cold soak it, figuring if the ECU is what is failing in hot weather--this would get it cold enough to start again. Nada.

Now I've got a mess of "that stuff goes around the ECU and dash" parts that I'm going to leave out for now, and try again tomorrow by taking the ignitor and coil and freezing THEM instead. I don't think they are the problem, I am suspecting the two signal circuits in the distributor, which would mean tossing in a whole distributor might be the part to swap out, instead of trying to readjust the coils in the existing one.

Months of logic and testing (parts and connectors) has got me to where I can either give the dealer a blank check (they're nice guys, they're honest guys, they also figure it could run anyplace from an hour to two days to run the problem down, KA-CHING!) so maybe throwing parts into it is no longer the foolish idea it usually is. A coil, ignitor, dizzy, ecu...all the small relay stuff can be bypassed and ignored.

Or maybe I'll try to put a fuel pressure gauge in there first, although I'm damned if the car could have low fuel pressure after 3000 high speed highway miles without any complaints.

Original owner, 1985 Toyota Corolla GT-S in the US of A. Will trade for a Cadillac-Gage V150 or a Ford GT44.
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09-30-2011, 11:33 AM
Post: #10
US /vs/ EU ignitor module, HELP PLEASE?
Have you tried adjusting the timing whilst cranking when it wont start? Too much advance will cause all kinds of starting problems, so it is an interesting thing to try when you are running out of ideas.

FABRICA MI DIEM, PVNC!
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