MCNSPORT latest ae86 project **MUST SEE**

[Eric]

Quote:s13 ca diff housing since it's the smallest and is lighter than the other's

not quite, diff housings are the same on s13 and s14, only difference is the backplate, s13 has 4 bolt, s14 2 bolt.
diff's form s13 and s14 can be swapped easily.

s15 diff has a little difference in driveshaft mounting and other minor stuff.

[ZaX]

Hi guys
Intresting discusion.
What I am using is S14 subframe with S13 hubs (to use 4 bolt rims). Also S13 has better handbrake then S14.

Since I had both subframes at same time in garage I can confirm they are bit different.
S14 subframe gives you a wider track as standard and the angles of the suspension arms result in a more traction as the angle the lower arm moves at encourages the wheels to push down onto the tarmac under load.



Another good source of info about this isue:
S15 Rear subframe (19.6kg compare to 21Kg onS13) It's also designed to give you more traction and 10mm wider than S13's. (if you wannat put it on S14, no mod needed, but on S13, you have to get the special subframe collar from Yanak.$200)



Kind regards,

ZaX

[Eric]

the reason s14 gives you wider track is not the frame itself, its the arms.
The handbrake thing is very true!!

[ZaX]

Eric Wrote:the reason s14 gives you wider track is not the frame itself, its the arms.
The handbrake thing is very true!!

I do not agree with you.
S13 vs S14 = different mounting points on the chassis. Custom offset subframe bushings confirm that.

I have measured both, S13 and S14. Extra track comes from there, not just arms.

Kr,

ZaX

[Touge86]

cage looks very similar to mine!

[improvedae86]

Eric Wrote:

Quote:s13 ca diff housing since it's the smallest and is lighter than the other's

not quite, diff housings are the same on s13 and s14, only difference is the backplate, s13 has 4 bolt, s14 2 bolt.
diff's form s13 and s14 can be swapped easily.

s15 diff has a little difference in driveshaft mounting and other minor stuff.

I don't know what years you had the S13's sold there , here they are all imported and there is Non ABS and ABS car's . The difference is the ABS S13's have a shorter nose diff , maybe by 20mm and also have the ABS wheel speed sensor ring inside the front of the casing . This casing is shorter and more hollow in the nose making for a lighter diff. No idea if there really much difference between the alloy rear housing's since the Non hicas imported here didn't have the oil cooling fin's.

And backplate ? are you talking about drive shaft's ? 5 bolt and 6 bolt .

[improvedae86]

ZaX Wrote:

Eric Wrote:the reason s14 gives you wider track is not the frame itself, its the arms.
The handbrake thing is very true!!

I do not agree with you.
S13 vs S14 = different mounting points on the chassis. Custom offset subframe bushings confirm that.

I have measured both, S13 and S14. Extra track comes from there, not just arms.

Kr,

ZaX

Looking at how many part number's there are for all the version's and those are just number from here couldn't it be there are more version out there in lots of country's ? I know the two S13 model's non hicas / hicas here use different hub's and lot's of people go swapping them over to delete the hicas and find the drive shaft's allow different degree's of movement / angle.

Interesting the weight of the frame , but once again was that a hicas s13 one ? and i remember seeing a aftermarket reinforced S15 subframe made in japland a while ago , apparently they flex and bend easy if you tap gutters . Maybe there just thinner guage steel only nissan would know.

[MCNSPORT.com]

Very interesting stuff here maybe there is more variations than we know of

it seems the s14 rear end is superior to s13 after all. I no of a lot of guys who use the s14 subframe rather than s13. this is why we used the s14 subframe in the rear of this ae86

Rhys millen does like to run big sway bars but he runs incredably low rate springs to compensat. He has been known to run less than 100lbs on a car. i think its just more his driveing preference that really doesnt suit the majority

@improvedae86
we have mounted the subframe as high into the chassis as we can possibly do within the rules, but we still know that the roll centre will end up very low we do not need to fully assemble the car to no this.

Again you use the word "Race" this is a drift car so nearly nothing from a race or grip car as we call them applies

The stiffness rate we have used comes from actual vehicle testing not from a computer programme. We can almost guarentee to our customer that this car will perform first day out on track without any suspension adjustments. All settings have been worked out on previous cars and is known to perform very well

[improvedae86]

Darren I think you might be getting a little carried away with the word "superior" .

If the arm locations are futher out by 10mm 5mm each side that might have been needed for many reasons from the track needing to fit the body with those skinny standard wheel , to wider diff flange's reducing cv angle's available. Or for yes a wider track difference and higher roll center to match the car's center of gravity. For sure S13's are mostly lacking drive traction over S14/S15 but once there are aftermarket adjustable arm's different spring/shocks different offset wheels , wider rubber , different bushes etc used there are so many variable's anyone could spend alot of time modelling or maybe year's testing to find not much difference.

I have driven standard S13's S14's S15's and with every series they are better in most area's but if i was relating it to drifting/loss of traction , i feel a S13 is easier to control maybe due to it being lighter , i found S14's a snappy car to drive and S15's far better in most area's of grip. But then a S15's is a S14's floorpan with more reinforcement so that might have more to do with handling then just a subframe difference. There are so many change's between model's that i wonder if any of the better or worst point's of there S series rear end has any meaning once it's placed in a far lighter car with totally different everything. I bet there are alot of people here who have had all the S series car and AE86's, they might have had no problem making there AE86 have a higher cornering speed even with basic live axle.

Personally to me the cost of a S14/S15 rear end being more than double a S13 rear end here that needs many changes in geometry for track use anyway doesn't make it worthwhile . The 10mm less track fitting better under a AE86 without the need for huge flare's maybe a plus for people too. Depending on there wheel size used they might be able to have no body changes, i know 40 offset R32gts 6.5" rims on a S13 rear end fits under a AE86 with no body changes. The extra drag created making the car wider might not bother people at lower speed's but anyone trying to keep up with lot's of low figure modern car's without huge power is going to struggle. I have no idea of what speed's really are on track's in most country's but local track's to me have average speed along there straight's over 210ks or 130mph, I have seen 252ks 156mph recorded in my car without tyre growth and that isn't going to happen with it's stock lower cost engine if i made the frontage area 5+% larger.

If you want to relate to many books writen on vehicle dynamics/handling and many computer program's then you would soon come to the conclusion that having a wider actual front track than rear produce' better manoeuvrability / turn in without needing a forward weight distribution. Adding futher making the vehicle's track wheelbase ratio less might produce kart like handling with very little weight transfer which is fine left in the kart since it has no weight to start with.

A perfect example of this was the raceflo ae86 drift car , huge wheel's making it a nearly a square ratio , vehicle was a complete flop with over $80.000AUD spent on everything , powered by 3sgte to 13bt to ls1 ?, transition from total understeer to snap oversteer had all it's driver's heading for any other car to drive.



I have no idea that drift had rules ? You talk of mounting the subframe as high into the chassis as you can within the rules ? How are there rule's that allow for cutting into a chassis to fit different suspension/axle but they limit it's placement with a certain roll center range. How would they know the roll center ?

[MCNSPORT.com]

improvedae86 Wrote:Darren I think you might be getting a little carried away with the word "superior" .

If the arm locations are futher out by 10mm 5mm each side that might have been needed for many reasons from the track needing to fit the body with those skinny standard wheel , to wider diff flange's reducing cv angle's available. Or for yes a wider track difference and higher roll center to match the car's center of gravity. For sure S13's are mostly lacking drive traction over S14/S15 but once there are aftermarket adjustable arm's different spring/shocks different offset wheels , wider rubber , different bushes etc used there are so many variable's anyone could spend alot of time modelling or maybe year's testing to find not much difference.

I have driven standard S13's S14's S15's and with every series they are better in most area's but if i was relating it to drifting/loss of traction , i feel a S13 is easier to control maybe due to it being lighter , i found S14's a snappy car to drive and S15's far better in most area's of grip. But then a S15's is a S14's floorpan with more reinforcement so that might have more to do with handling then just a subframe difference. There are so many change's between model's that i wonder if any of the better or worst point's of there S series rear end has any meaning once it's placed in a far lighter car with totally different everything. I bet there are alot of people here who have had all the S series car and AE86's, they might have had no problem making there AE86 have a higher cornering speed even with basic live axle.

Personally to me the cost of a S14/S15 rear end being more than double a S13 rear end here that needs many changes in geometry for track use anyway doesn't make it worthwhile . The 10mm less track fitting better under a AE86 without the need for huge flare's maybe a plus for people too. Depending on there wheel size used they might be able to have no body changes, i know 40 offset R32gts 6.5" rims on a S13 rear end fits under a AE86 with no body changes. The extra drag created making the car wider might not bother people at lower speed's but anyone trying to keep up with lot's of low figure modern car's without huge power is going to struggle. I have no idea of what speed's really are on track's in most country's but local track's to me have average speed along there straight's over 210ks or 130mph, I have seen 252ks 156mph recorded in my car without tyre growth and that isn't going to happen with it's stock lower cost engine if i made the frontage area 5+% larger.

If you want to relate to many books writen on vehicle dynamics/handling and many computer program's then you would soon come to the conclusion that having a wider actual front track than rear produce' better manoeuvrability / turn in without needing a forward weight distribution. Adding futher making the vehicle's track wheelbase ratio less might produce kart like handling with very little weight transfer which is fine left in the kart since it has no weight to start with.

A perfect example of this was the raceflo ae86 drift car , huge wheel's making it a nearly a square ratio , vehicle was a complete flop with over $80.000AUD spent on everything , powered by 3sgte to 13bt to ls1 ?, transition from total understeer to snap oversteer had all it's driver's heading for any other car to drive.



I have no idea that drift had rules ? You talk of mounting the subframe as high into the chassis as you can within the rules ? How are there rule's that allow for cutting into a chassis to fit different suspension/axle but they limit it's placement with a certain roll center range. How would they know the roll center ?

Here we go again,

Ok improvedae86 all s series rear ends are the same or they are different. We are using a s14 rear end its staying that way

This car is obviously wider than stock so the 10mm extra track wont cause too much drama, also we have the front wider than the rear

maybe you should have helped those guys after they spent all that money?

Drift has rules

Customers have budgets also which requires some compromise in some areas to get the best overall package for theyre budget

Thank you for posting a load of crap on our suspension thread also, if you would like to argue with another member please do it ourside of our threads

This thread is now back on topic, if anybody wants to further discuss s series rear ends please start a new thread

Thank you

Darren